[Puffin]

Historically, Nardir hasn't really had set-in-stone rules on challenging, so we used the default forum rules for fight challenges. Thing is, that's not super Nardiri. Nardir's culture emphasizes harmony, so now we'll have challenge rules to match!

Introducing: Debate based challenges!

From now on, a character who challenges another character for their rank initiates a public debate¹ instead of a fight. There are three basic parts to this debate: the speeches, the questions, and the vote. First, both the challenger and the challenged must give a speech (however long or short; there is no maximum or minimum length) to the members of the rank on how they are better fit to lead the rank. Second, the members of their rank may ask questions of both the challenger and the challenged. Finally, the members of the rank vote ² on who they want to lead them.

"But Puffin," you may ask, "isn't that a bit too democratic for a supposed monarchy?" I agree, it is pretty democratic. But we think it's more true to Nardir's beliefs than before. Nardir's alphas believe that the role of leaders is to serve the people, and that communication and debate are instrumental in maintaining the bond of trust between leader and packmate. Alana, Julek, and Puffin believe that if the pack as a whole is so dissatisfied in their current rulers' leadership that they would vote for a challenger, then the Monarchs and Viceroy have already failed as leaders. They put their trust in the members of Nardir to come forward when they feel something is wrong, and ask for the trust that they as leaders will do what is right.

Nothing stopped anyone from challenging the Nardir leaders to a fight before; the only difference now is that we have finally chosen a more fitting way to prove our mettle as Nardiri.

To summarize:

1. A member of the pack challenges a rank captain³ for their rank
   
2. The members of that rank⁴ assemble for the debate
   
3. The challenger and the challenged party both give a speech on how and why they would lead the rank better than the other
   
4. The members of the rank⁵ ask the challenger and challenged rank captain questions, if they have them
   
5. The members of the rank⁵ vote on who they want to lead them
   
6. The loser assumes the rank they held prior to the captain rank⁶
   

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¹ This new system goes for all the captain ranks, the Hydra, and the Lunar Monarchs + the Viceroy (all three together as a single challenged party). The Groundskeeper rank was built around Buckshot's unique skills and interests and is thus challenge immune, and we foresee no need to challenge for the Advisor rank as there is no cap on how many people can be an Advisor. If the Hydra is challenged, the Lunar Monarchs ask the questions and make the final vote. If the Lunar Monarchs and Viceroy altogether are challenged, every member of the pack ranked above Astronomer may ask questions and cast a vote.

² The Lunar Monarchs and Viceroy, if they believe the winner of the vote unfit to lead the rank, may assign the rank to a different person, even to the loser. In the unlikely event that the whole of Nardir chooses a challenger to lead the pack over the current Lunar Monarchs and Viceroy, the challenger may decide whether to demote or banish the Monarchs and Viceroy.

³ or the Hydra, or all three alphas together

⁴ or the Lunar Monarchs for Hydra challenge, or the whole of Nardir for an alpha challenge

⁵ or the Lunar Monarchs for a Hydra challenge, or all Nardiri ranked above Astronomer for an alpha challenge

⁶ In an alpha challenge, the loser is demoted or banished as chosen by the winner

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As a note, these rules are for challenges within Nardir's ranks, and don't cover territory challenges from other packs. We're still working on those. But for now, I'd like to open this up for questions and concerns, if you've got them! This is a larger change, so for right now it's more of a draft for you guys to look over. We're open to editing this before we make it official, so we'd love to have your input. I think we'll make this official in a week, on October 27th, so that's a week of discussion time.

So, thoughts?

[Rieal]

So I think this is a really nice idea but..I think physical things should be left in as well for the more..physical ranks? Like for example Aylie would, and of course has, challenged before in a verbal manner but she also believes in the physical issues like..for example Sansa..Sansa is the Hydra which is a protection thing so for a rank like that yes she would start verbally but she also would expect a physical thing since ya know..if you can't fight well enough to protect yourself why should you have a rank that revolves around being able to fight well enough to protect others so..yeah. I think that physical things should be left in for challenges since while Nardir is peaceful alot of the characters that end up in Nardir have pasts where it wouldn't really make sense for them to just..go by words.

Also I think there needs to be more about votes and like..bias things. Like part of Nardir's IC law involves healers and Sentries not treating/accepting family members unless there is no one else because there would be bias and all that so I think with the voting maybe something needs to be established for that..I mean I can see it being established ICly since Aylie..with this being a new system Aylie is of course going to question it and be very skeptical and suspicious of it because..she will see it as a popularity vote or as a potential popularity vote and as a rigged system so..yeah.

So yeah..keep the verbal thing but have physical things maybe still be an option for characters/ranks that are more physical and maybe figure out how to prevent votes being rigged.

[Puffin]

Those are some good points! I agree that fighting skill is very relevant for certain ranks, like the Hydra and Centaurus, and even to a lesser extent the Maelstrom and Parsec. But, fighting skill is not necessarily a mark of good leadership. The rank captains are not expected to be the best fighters, but the best leaders. If the members of the rank have an issue with their leader's fighting ability, this system allows them to choose a better fighter to lead them, if that's what they value the most. We can even edit these rules to allow rank members to opt for a spar between challenger and challenged party if they see fighting ability as a necessary part of the role.

For the Hydra in particular: the Hydra is entrusted with the safety of the royal family, and there is more to keeping the royal family safe than fighting ability. The Hydra must also have a good sense of judgement and risk assessment, and they must be trusted by the Monarchs. We feel that a debate-based challenge is still appropriate for the Hydra rank, and if the Monarchs are interested in who might win in a fight, they are certainly able to request a spar.

The Nardir Guidebook does not currently have a rule against members accepting family at the border. In fact, Byakko recently accepted his old mate Raka at the border, and this was totally fine. Currently, we do not feel the need to guard against bias, because we trust the judgement of our border guards implicitly.

On challenge bias, we did build in a failsafe: the Nardir alphas reserve the right to choose whomever they like to captain a rank, even someone who loses the vote. This mechanism is in place in order to guard against popularity contests and rigged votes, in case such a thing happens. This is still a monarchy, after all. And, in another vein, fight challenges aren't bias-less, either. They simply rely on a different bias: the right of might. Nardir ideologically opposes the philosophy that being able to win a fight is more important than how your members view your leadership ability.

I should also note that all challenges have to go through the three of us OOCly. If we OOCly approve a challenge, it means that we are willing to accept the new rank captain. If we aren't, we would tell the challenger up front that should they win the vote, the Nardir alphas would reassign the rank to someone else.

[Kimster]

I quite like this idea, and feel that it is more in keeping with the Nardiri belief system. This adds a much more cerebral part to a challenge which I love

[Rieal]

Oh I wasn't saying to get rid of the debates just..Aylie challenged for a rank a while back (it was alpha approved under the previous alphas) and she actually did start by verbally arguing her position but felt it necessary to back up the words with actions so..yeah. Aylie does take verbal arguments into account but she also expects and thinks it necessary for words to be backed up with/by actions. So that..should be accounted for not just for Aylie but other characters with similar beliefs.

And as for the border/healer rule..I had at one point showed the thread where that was a rule to..I forget who and I was told that it would be re-added to the Guidebook so..not sure if it was forgotten or if it was..opted to be left out but..yeah.

Also something else I thought of is there should probably be a bit more on alpha challenges and bias involving them in any form..either them being biased towards one character (ICly of course since I don't see that being a thing OOCly) and for characters being biased towards certain leader/s in the event of an alpha challenge.

[Rieal]

I really like this idea! It makes rank challenge threads much more inclusive for the rest of the pack, which I think fits in very well for a peaceful pack like Nardir. It's not a system I think would work in a violent pack, like Saboro or Alteron, but I think it will be interesting and a good change of pace for Nardir! It will be interesting to see proposals and counterproposals, and overall I think the roleplay will be really fun! Every character gets an opinion, and everyone gets to argue their points, and it's a more diplomatic way to proceed while still remaining fair to those involved.

Very excited to see it happen!! I wonder if one of the other peaceful packs (Inaria, Gemini?) would pick up this system too if it works out here? c: Aaaaa I'm excited!!

Inaria actually does kinda do this..or did do this..when the Guard rank was challenged for the pack was allowed input but a spar was still done as the other half of the challenge so..yeah. It combined both things..member input and physical challenge for the military/head guard rank.

[Puffin]

The rule about not accepting family at the border does sound familiar, so it definitely might have been an old rule. It's not anymore, though, and we don't see any reason to reinstate it. Halos still can't take acceptances; only Jovian Winds and anyone above the Core ranks can do that.

If Aylie were to challenge for a rank now, she would not be able to fight for it unless the voting rank members wanted to judge a fight. If they decide that a debate alone is enough, then she may not fight the person she is challenging. She could, however, try to convince the voters that fighting skill is relevant.

For bias in alpha challenges, I'm not sure I understand how you classify a bias versus a preference. Having a preference for who leads you is necessary to vote competently, and having a bias implies that a person's preference is based on something not relevant to leadership ability. How do you decide if someone's preference is biased? It's clear if the preference is "I'm voting for Alana because she's pretty" but it's significantly less clear if the preference is "I'm voting for Alana because I feel safer with her as Queen. She wasn't away from the pack for a long time like Julek was." Is that biased? How do you define the line between biased and unbiased?

As it stands, the rules specify that Alana, Julek, and Puffin are to be treated as a single party in the event of an alpha challenge. They cannot be pitted against each other, because they are a team that governs together. In the event of an alpha challenge, the pack would vote between the challenger, whoever that may be, and all three current alphas together. The pack will not have to choose between Alana, Julek, and Puffin.

[Rieal]

Okay yeah it's importance and level of enforcement has kinda been an off and on thing just..since that rule played a very large part in the reason behind Aylie's previous rank challenge I figured it should be mentioned and..gotten clarification for.

And that..I think would almost guarantee treason on Aylie's part because there is almost no way she would accept a simple vote as a result of a challenge she would pretty much demand and insist on a spar or a race or..something physical for any rank being challenged for as that is simply part of her character so..yeah. That presents an issue because Nardir does draw darker more violent characters and Nardir has had assassins in the past, which isn't exactly peaceful, and needs to be taken into account. I mean even Tallulah, though as a Groundskeeper trainee which is exempt from the challenges, is more relaxed about things than Aylie but even she has become physical in challenge situations before so..the rules themselves at this point are kinda biased against darker more physically inclined characters being able to hold/challenge for ranks.

And as for bias..there is family bias. I mean the alphas could easily be biased towards one of their children or another family member and be against a non-relative simply because of the relation or lack thereof also having all alphas be challenged as one is also kinda biased..like I have read several posts where not all the alpha characters are viewed on equal terms and I think it should be possible for them to be challenged individually and not just as a group. An example is Julek..when he was appointed as king alot of characters did not like the idea of him being king and indicated as such but those same characters had no trouble with Alana being Queen..so..I think it being required that all alphas be challenged as one is unfair and demonstrates bias.

[Hayley]

re: 'family can't accept family', i've never been a fan of that rule because it seemed very unlike what Nardiri culture should be. personally i feel as though family members of any Nardiri should/would be welcomed in to the pack, as long as they didn't present any terribly obvious problems that would negatively effect the pack. it may have been the case in the past where that was a rule, but i don't think it should apply any more. Nardir's past should not be the cornerstone upon which we build our future.

if Aylie challenged and insisted on a fight instead of a debate, it would come down to what rank she was challenging for -- fighting for Centaurus would make more sense than fighting for Weaver, but we put the rules in place for a few specific reasons. one such reason is that the best fighter may not be the best person to lead the rank, as physical prowess doesn't automatically make someone leader material. the new challenge rules make it more fair and democratic, and also prevent people who are more experienced with roleplay fighting from just taking a lead rank for any kind of petty reason (which we don't foresee ever happening, but better safe than sorry). i don't see how it's biased against more physically-inclined characters. to be honest, if a character can't display good enough leadership skills to be voted into the rank, they probably shouldn't be leading it, no matter how good they are at fighting. we can leave a little wiggle room in challenges depending on what both the challenger/challenged agree on or want, but the rules are meant to be broad enough to cover multiple characters -- not tailored to any specific one/personality type.

as for family bias, we could put in some kind of rule where the Star Council (or even the pack as a whole) could vote to veto an alpha's decision if they believed it to be biased, though - that's definitely an option on the table! i don't see it ever needing to come to that though, hopefully. 

the alphas are challenged as a team because they are a team. Alana brought Julek on because she wants him there, she trusts his judgment and his abilities as a leader, and they both brought Puffin on because they value his input and trust him to support them and do what's best for the pack. to challenge one is to challenge the wisdom and judgment of the other two. although we hope it doesn't come to it, if one alpha was becoming a problem and the pack was suffering from it, the other two alphas would do something about it, up to and including ousting the problematic alpha. we understand the concerns here though, so as a medium ground, what about this: if someone wishes to challenge a specific alpha, they must appeal their reasoning to the Star Council and get permission via majority vote (this removes the possibility of alpha-to-alpha bias).

in the event that a 1v1 challenge is approved, things will proceed as such:
- the challenger and challenged will both be able to speak to the pack at large, giving their reasons why they deserve to be alpha.
   -- if the challenger wants a physical fight as well, this may or may not be granted depending on the situation, such as the challenged party being pregnant/ill/otherwise unable to fairly defend themselves. this is also voted on by the Star Council.
- the Nardiri will vote on who they believe to be the best candidate for alpha, the winner becomes alpha and the loser is demoted.

there's room to work with all of this, and we really do appreciate the feedback!

[Puffin]

Also to piggy back onto what Hayley said, we have also decided to classify all the rank captains + Hydra + Groundskeeper (you know, that whole rank section) as the Star Council, since altogether they feel more council-like than our quartet up in the zenith. Advisor Byakko is still a member of the Star Council, we've just moved the rank heads up to his level.

What that means here is that it's essentially all the rank captains that would be doing the voting on someone submitting an appeal to challenge an alpha one on one.

[Rieal]

Well as usual y'all are awesome and everything has been addressed quite nicely and I can't think of anything else so ☺

[Rieal]

Nvm thought of something else after all..what about challenges for shared leadership? Like if the challenger doesn't want to entirely displace the one they are challenging but are challenging to share the rank instead..How would something like that work?

[Sekirei]

I'm liking this idea because it gives the pack something of a democratic monarchy angle and it works out well for Akutan who isn't a strong fighter (because I'm not good with fight scenes anyway) plus his philosophy has always been rooted in the belief that words have more power than brute physical force. I'm not entirely sure of my own debate skills either so if he's ever challenged, it might be better for the challenger to go first so I can see how it would work.

Speaking of, since the rank heads are now on the Council, I'm wondering exactly what the dynamic is between them and Byakko, who currently the sole adviser but isn't a rank head himself. Councils tend to have an internal leader in addition to equal power among all members. I'm curious if we have that sort of dynamic now or if that just over-complicates things.

[Uri]

I'd assume that if there'll be an internal leader among the council, it'll be chosen by the council via IC interactions and not OOCly.

[Sekirei]

I'd assume that if there'll be an internal leader among the council, it'll be chosen by the council via IC interactions and not OOCly.

Good point.

[Puffin]

The Lunar Monarchs, and to a lesser extent the Viceroy, lead the Star Council. On matters where the Star Council would vote without the Monarchs and Viceroy, a leader is not necessary, but Star Council members may choose a leader from among themselves if they find it necessary to do so.


We've passed Oct. 27th so we're going to start adding this to the Guidebook. Thanks for the feedback!